[Dylan]

What do you think about it?

I think America's nobility is expensive. Expensive in lives and money. It was one thing to 'nation build' Germany and Korea. It was 'smarter' to leave Vietnam and the Congo.

This is a bad example but here it is. We didn't want to build an oil platform off the florida coastline in the 70s-80s. So, in 2009, we can spend 700b on oil to the middle east who in turn built manmade islands and ski resorts in the desert.

At some point, you have to balance noble virtue vs practicality.

The real issue is there are elements that do exist that threaten our national security. The problem is it really worthwhile to go after them. I say Yes to Iraq, I have said No and still say no to Afghanistan. I think no empire has ever succeeded in Afghanistan... its near unwinnable.

Terrain makes it hard. Caves make it impossible. And there is no easy sustenance in the country to build on. It's a black hole. Last i heard, its better just to stay a ways back from such places. Practicality vs virtue.

I want to mention, most of our 'adversaries' there are just trying to eat. And the bad guys let you eat and have drugs. The good guys dont. So, you are back to nation building in order to truly succeed. Nation building in an black hole not an oasis.

Either way, I think the Iraq/ Afghanistan Wars are good practice. Because, i strongly believe the mother of all wars is coming in Iran which is will be larger than the other 3 wars combined.

We havent begun to lose lives or money yet.

What say you?

[Balis]

I will say right off the bat that I want us to win in Afghanistan, but defining the "win" conditions is the trouble.

Obama's speech felt so false, so lacking in a real goal, and trying to appease both sides of the political spectrum that it pleased no-one. His own party is beating him up right now, Obama's shine is coming off and the polls show it.

We need to allow our Military do it's job, and that means taking politics out of it as much as possable. I felt Obama's choice and goals had to much politics injected into it. (which is to be expected regardless of party)

Regardless of your feelings on if we should be there or not the cold hard fact is we are there. What we need todo is gain the trust of the people, by providing them security first off, then help feed them. All while doing this train them how to defend them selves(police, Army) and also help them grow their own food to feed the people. The key is the people. The drugs will be a problem, and not sure it can be solved.

Iran does scare me, not sure what is going to happen there, but if that goes hot it will be painful. Also I don't know what deplomacy can do to help with this, it seems Iran is hell bent on causing issues.

[NatashaK]

I have no idea why we're there or that we're doing. Other than hunting for terrorists who left long ago.

[Shawnta]

Originally Posted by NatashaK

I have no idea why we're there or that we're doing. Other than hunting for terrorists who left long ago.

I agree.

And it's not Obama's war: its more shit he got stuck cleaning up from his predecessor.

[Liquid]

dylan i agree completely with the iran topic, we will got to war with them in the near future its not a matter of "if" but "when", problem is it wont ever be a war like these, i can see it turning into a nuke war really quick, and with nukes......well lets say a lot of us will be put into the stone age.

I have always been afraid of Iran, especially when they where feeding Iraq the IED's that have been blowing up our troops all this time.

Im just worried about whos going to capatilize on the fact that we could go to war with Iran.

[shmee]

I have no idea why we're there or that we're doing. Other than hunting for terrorists who left long ago.

I was under the impression US was in Afghanistan to repair the shit Reagan created.. and the Taliban still have a foothold in Afghanistan

The real issue is there are elements that do exist that threaten our national security. The problem is it really worthwhile to go after them. I say Yes to Iraq, I have said No and still say no to Afghanistan. I think no empire has ever succeeded in Afghanistan... its near unwinnable.

Dont you think not going after them in Afghanistan because its too hard would send a message to them that they got a safehaven which would just allow them to regain power again once US and NATO left? Im not sure where the american rightwing pacifism came from all of a sudden but im guessing you're afraid of repeating what soviet did? In which case US/NATO isnt there to conquer which is a huge difference in my opinion
And if you believe your next war is against Iran wouldnt you think having Afghanistan under controll is a good idea?

[MrStorm]

Nuke the shit out of them ...... or not.

[Balis]

I re-thought this out a little bit. It is not Bush's war, or Obama's war, it's "OUR" war, many countries are in Afghanastan right now(NATO) so it is in our best intrest to:
Stabalize Afghanastan to the point it can fight off the Talaban/AL-Quida on it's own so no safehaven can be given to our enemy. (it does not have to be a perfect goverment, just help us fight our enemy)

I am also not happy it is taking so long, but I am not one to just give up because all the lives lost to make it this far have died for nothing. This is why I want to win this, and not turn tail and run.

I also am tired of the blame game, I don't care who started it, or who is to blame anymore I just want the person who is running it(Obama) to make the right choice and win this.

As of right now, I don't have much faith in the choices that have been made so far that lead me to think the plan is working.

That is where I stand.

Iran is a no win, and I would like to hear people's Ideas on how to deal with it. The rulers/clerics that run that country are mad men, and I don't think it is a good idea for them to have nukes, so what do you do? Do you just ignore them and let them get nukes? Do you attack them and stop them from getting nukes? They have shown that talking to them and asking them not to get nukes does not work.

So how do you deal with a mad men running the country? I don't want a war with them. I also think the people of Iran don't want a war with us eather, they want more freedom as shown in the small uprising they had last year. A lot of them don't like their goverment.

What say you?

[Tangh]

turn it all into glass

[Vinz]

nuke iran and north korea!

[Liquid]

or just assassinate their leaders and get it over with.

[Arika]

SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM:

[Arika]

Originally Posted by Shawnta

I agree.

And it's not Obama's war: its more shit he got stuck cleaning up from his predecessor.

I totally agree with you on this.

Canada is getting our troops there in 2011, not a day too late imo. The British were beaten there in the 1800, the Russian's in the 1980's, in the 2000's, it's NATO's turn. It really sucks, but a bunch of farmers with AK-47 and dynamite got the best of us.

The only solution is diplomacy, as much as i hate negociating with a buch of douche who treat women like crap, we don't have much choice ( other than nuking the crap out of them ). Anyways, the real problem is Pakistan, not Afghanisthan ...

[Dylan]

there are just Huge, Mega Collisions coming forward.

-expected USA debt = USA gdp by 2017. by some definitions, this is broke.
-iran going online and israel preemptive attacking.

------

i guess the title is meaningless in that it doesnt matter whose it is. we are there. i guess my intention was to point out, however we got there, obama in his speech took complete ownership of the war going forward.

personally i think measured proper response, is to have a force there but more of a fenceline vs eradicating or nation building presence.

i dont know if you guys know this but the 'madmen' if you want to call it are on both sides.

iran wants to build wpn grade nuke materials. once that factory is online, jewish leadership here and in israel have sworn to eradicate it completely and immediately.

the usa will then be faced with a uhoh what do we do about this.

[Qwalme]

Its ok, Tony Blair is the Middle East Peace Envoy - he'll negotiate human peace and it will all be over - oh wait, he's cashing in on his pm'ship by giving talks around the world ><



Prick.

[Volga]

It's actually the Mongols war, back in the 1200 Afghanistan was actually fairly developed for it's day and age, had big irrigation projects and so forth. When Inalchuq killed the Mongol sent to trade and open up diplomatic ties, the mongols left China and invaded and destroyed the area. Probably one of the worst mistakes of all time. The mongols where approximately the equivalent of an atomic bomb in the damage they ended up doing to the middle east. A lot of it's recovered but Afghanistan is still probably worse off now than it was pre-mongols.

The moral of this story is don't mess with short hairy men on horses with bows.

As for the current problems the only real solution has to come from the Afgans themselves. Brute force is pointless as you don't have anyone to target, a guy can plant a bomb and just walk away and you will have no idea who it was. Realistically what's going to happen is that as soon as western forces pull out a two or three way civil war is going to break out, and the country will probably break up into a whole bunch of distinct tribal area's or a new brutal regime will take over.

[Citric]

Problem with Afghanistan is not the terrain...(well it is) but its no my point.

In Iraq, civilians greeted our troops and were happy we were there, in Afghanistan they don't know even know how to read...they wonder WTF we're doing in their country
They're too stupid to realize wtf is going on there

Some of my friends have been to both wars, and the difference is increadible....

[Senti]

no money to be made in nuking the whole area

might explain to some why that will never happen short of the maybe an accidental launch ... or SKYNET!!!!

[St0rmshadow]

Any President would have been screwed this term. Even FDR. Our country has no money and spread itself too thin over seas starting wars and not finishing them before moving onto the next.

We give a trillion to a select few failing banking institutions while they continue to dole out billions in bonuses. We give billions to to auto companies that have been poorly managed and gambled hugely on a horrible business plan. We give billions upon billions to countries over-seas. When a long time "enemy" that has historically hated the US is erased by mother nature we send billions more.

Yet when we want to provide health care or access to health care to all citizens the Democrats are commies and socialists.

Too bad those conservatives throwing stones do not realize they live in a glass house of "capitalism." I do not recall in my years of political science studies giving failing industries and businesses trillions from the government has one element of capitalism about it. In fact that is a very socialist measure.

Why is it okay to help those that hate us when an earthquake or hurricane strikes when you can walk in any city and find homeless. Some choose it and that is fine for them, but most have chemical addictions or severe mental health issues. I know because I was a prosecuting attorney for many years in Seattle. I would prefer those dollars go to fixing our domestic human concerns instead. Homeless on the streets with mental health issues are very dangerous. The death of many civilians and police officers in Washington state this past 12 months is evidence enough.

Obama has to finish Afghanistan unfortunately because of the nuclear situation. We already know that Al Qaeda is ballsy enough to attack the US. Afghanistan has an abysmal government, zero infrastructure and a civilian population that has been under constant attack from outsiders. That country or at least their nuclear program needs to be secured. Either eradicate it and leave the rock pile alone or establish a government that can prevent religious militants from gaining a country.

Iran is the Cold War Russia. Lots of talk, but no bite. They have an established government and they saw what we did to Iraq in a toe to toe war. Iraq was an even match to Iran in war. In the end, they understand a nuclear attack would result in their total destruction. Not even Russia or China would support that blunder.

The primary nuclear risk is Afghanistan because they do not have a government that can properly govern or protect within their borders. When Al Qaeda invaded and took over Swat Valley the government really did not care until wee shoved our diplomacy up their ass.


Once Afghanistan is resolved I would like to see the US focus on creating an economy that produces something the world wants. Everything you buy is made in China. We are a service economy that is easily replicated by poorer industrious nations (China, India etc). I would like to see portions of our society that need help get help. No I am not talking about the outliers that both the Democrats and Republicans march out in their commercials or bullshit speeches. I am talking about citizens that are really trying to make it but cannot because rent, health care, child care and food take up every penny they make.

Think of Seattle's cost of living for a single mom with a dead beat husband that contributes no money or cannot even generate any money.

Rent $900 per month for crappy apartment
Child care $1700 per month for kid under 7
Car payment $250 to $500 Seattle transit is a joke and if you have a kid you cannot use it
Utilities and food $1500 at least
Any other expense ????

You need at least a $65k a year job or more after taxes. Our stance on health care and child care in this country is atrocious compared to our allies in Western Europe and many other countries we would loathe to be compared to.

It does not matter who is President now because our economy is barely hanging on supported by our taxes, our military is involved in 2 conflicts and patrols many other regions to maintain peace and our society has serious divides.


I would like to see Jesus, abortion, sexuality and race tossed out of politics altogether. They are not issues to be legislated and they should not be rally cries to gain votes. The economy, security of our nation and well-being of our citizens should be the concerns.

Just my two cents.

[Balis]

I say fire every last one of them!!! The goverment needs to cut spending, and a lot of it! No program is safe. Tired of them spending my money and spending our kids, my grand kids, and my great great grand kids money!!!